No response yet. No judgement. Yet.
I thought this would be a better forum for a discussion – this way we are not condemned to 140 characters.
I’d like this to be a living document – one that we will keep updated and, if our discussions prove useful, link others to for educational purposes.
Firstly, let’s have a little overview of what I hope we will be discussing;
The article – namely your criticisms of it. For this you have the floor. Please feel free to share any and all links you would like.
The state of rape education – as it was a subject of our discussion I feel it best to go into greater detail on the matter. As I made the positive claim in that regard I will follow up with that below. Feel free to criticize at your leisure.
The nature of Feminism – we all know that Christianity is more than the Ten Commandments and I will submit that Feminism is more than its dictionary definition. I am – by choice – agnostic when it comes to politics and social matters, but my views on the movement have coloured by the actions and statements made by its members. Again, I will go into that below.
What it means to be a misogynist – you have accused me of misogyny, and that is something I take issue with. In this you have the floor. Please elaborate.
The State of Rape Education.
Here is a list of universities and colleges that have consent classes.
*Warwick – http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html here is Lawlor’s own article http://thetab.com/uk/warwick/2015/10/14/dont-need-consent-lessons-9925
Columbia http://sexualrespect.columbia.edu/prevention-education-and-stepup (also, check out their sexual misconduct policy http://sexualrespect.columbia.edu/gender-based-misconduct-policy-students)
*California-Davis – http://sexualviolence.ucdavis.edu/education_training.html
Bradley – this is a link to their ‘helpful hints’ pdf https://www.bradley.edu/dotAsset/ff0293fc-b69a-49df-bccb-989744a33c56.pdf
Wisconsin-Greenbay – https://www.uwgb.edu/dean-of-students/sexual-assault-title-ix/sexual-assault.asp
Michigan – https://wmich.edu/sexualmisconduct/education
I found these by the simple exercise of typing in ‘x university consent course’ into Google. I’m certain that there will be more, and if anyone in the comments would like to give it a go, please feel free to link more.
I don’t believe women are best served by diminishing their status as morally autonomous agents of their own destiny, and recasting them as quivering victims of some out-of-control lad culture.
Rather than being coerced into a paint by numbers introduction to approved sexual etiquette, these are boundaries that students must negotiate and define for themselves, hopefully experiencing pleasure in the process. It’s called being an adult.
The prevalence of sexual assaults on campus – and elsewhere – will not be remedied by this neo-puritan preaching to students. As well as being inappropriate, it is simply too late by then. The time for teaching and exploring the nature of consent is when people really are children – a fact that even Jessica Valenti agrees with.
Men tend not to like being called rapists so are publicly pushing back against the label, simply because it is an inaccurate portrait of them as individuals.
I will quote Penn Jillette here, as his views mirror my own. Oh course, here he is talking about religious morals, but, as I will go into later, Feminism has become something of a cult.
“I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don’t want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don’t want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?”
Now, you can argue that the consent courses have validity in that they help people understand how to interpret peoples actions; ie – I wasn’t aware that she was saying no.
I think that is a valid argument, albeit not the strongest. Yes, we have lessons and classes for children who have trouble interpreting the actions and emotions (one of the best way for Autistic children to learn about empathy is through playing with a pet such as a puppy or ferret.) Such classes, however, are not mandatory, nor are they present in universities outside those that cater to the disabled community.
The nature of Feminism.
Let me first ask this question; is Feminism a movement for equality?
When entering into the gender equality debate, on of the first things asserted is that feminism is dedicated to equality in our society. It is common to encounter the feminist voice on vlogs, blogs, in books, comics, games criticism and in articles claiming that feminism is the best representation of a move toward equality.
But how can we test that and are we even able to?
The first two waves of feminism, and the many proto forms it took before the turn of the last century, fought to raise the standing of women in society where there were clear and vast imbalances. Both men and women were stuck in enforced roles and it’s right that the women’s liberation movements fought for balance in democracy, the right for women to work, earn, own property and shape their own lives.
A little history.
In the sixties and seventies it was the domestic violence circuit. Today its rape hysteria. I call it like I see it.
Now, does this mean that feminists are all bad people? No. In the same way that not all Catholics are bad people, but the Catholic church most assuredly is.
So, are we any closer to an answer? Not really. As a tangent, while reading for this I found an article written by a woman that would prefer to not have equality, but espouses very feminist views. Interesting read if you have the mind for a small slice of bigotry and doublethink. Right after that I found another saying completely the opposite – views which I very much agree with in spirit. Its almost as if Feminism needs orthodoxy.
Organised Feminism, feminism that lobbies, forms meetings and collects donations, is worrisome to me. That is as much as I feel qualified to answer for now.
Both genders, as citizens, now have equal rights. There are further developments that deserve attention for each gender, so a campaign should be run by both men and women who, together, tackle highlighted equality issues that affect men and/or women; it would be wrong to fight for, only, the rights of women, as feminism clearly does today.
You can point to things like the Good Man Project, citing their ‘Feminism for men’. If self flagellation works for you be my guest, but my kinks are less masochistic.
A minority of men are guilty of major crimes; it is bizarre a movement for equal rights would imply that the majority of non-offending men have no right to voice the discrimination they face in courts, simply because some other men in society are criminally minded toward women? Would we use the same logic towards women in cases of child abuse and infanticide? Feminism overlooks significant gender equality issues, and, in some cases, contributes to the daemonisation of men and uses that as a further reason for men to be silenced.
I am an advocate for women’s rights. I cherish the thought of having a daughter one day. I want to help create a society where they can safely prosper and choose whether they work or keep house, or both. But I would cherish a son too, and I don’t want him to grow up surrounded by a culture that will condemn him for being male.
*Gets off soap box and ends emotional tirade*
Early on in our discussion you mentioned that Christina Hoff-Somers was the equivalent of Fox news.
In a trend worryingly similar to Creationists and Christian Apologists the Feminist community at large attempts to discredit dissenters or critics in any way possible – something which you then did to Janice Fiamengo – calling her a white nationalist. Whether or not she is is immaterial, surely, to the points she makes about subjects that are not directly related to white nationalism? I have tweeted Fiamengo about her potential WNism to see if she will comment on your assertions.
Feminism has directly impacted the treatment of legal proceedings surrounding rape ad has impacted the social implications of being accused.
I feel dirty for even linking the mail – see what you make me do.